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#26 2010-07-15 10:58:44

SwaggerJ
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Re: The art of the build

bbkaos wrote:

Next up is two stat-whore specials:

3's
Rebound
Leader
Block
Defense

I actually want to try this line sometime, although the problem is more what the other line will look like because of chems.  The issue here is a lack of pass/BH/shoot/dunk, although I love the huge values in lead/d/blocking.  This line has had real success though, but it just doesn't fit my criteria.

FE used this as one unit for most of its existence so I guess that makes me a stat whore tongue Although you should probably blame marv for that because I had to shuffle around lineups to accomodate his player when he joined. BH values came from Rain sliding some from 3 as well as the Leadership guard having a high secondary in it. Passing was Rain's secondary so he provided some good value there as well. You're right in that Shooting and Dunking were minimal while Blocking, D and Leadership were all very high. This doesn't really translate the way you think it might though... While it seems the lineup would be great at stopping scorers, most times when I faced another solo 3 point shooter, we would both go off for like 40+. It really left me scratching my head regarding what having so much Blocking and Rebounding was good for...

bbkaos wrote:

Absolutely, I've seen teams without 3's do pretty well.  I would just personally never do it.  I know I come off strong, but I really am not saying my way is right or the only way.  It is just a matter of opinion really.  I mean one of the best teams of all time (CTTF) violated one of my rules (they had a FT guy instead of a leader, 3 offensive type players).  However, they were such good trainers and so far ahead of the curve slide wise that they dominated early Jordan.

What it comes down to is how ridiculously efficient 3's are.  Why wouldn't you want to take advantage of that?

Not quite true... While you may consider FT player as offensive type, William Wallace was used exclusively to slide into BH and Passing (again, blame marv... Originally he thought, as most of us have, that there was a Lead-BH chem, and Caine/Wallace were supposed to be Lead/BH. When we all figured out that there was no such chem, he decided to make Wallace into a FT guy and slide most into BH/Pass). I think the most interesting thing about the team was the fact that Wallace's line typically didn't have much Leadership. I guess they just dominated most of the other categories enough to be effective


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#27 2010-07-15 11:01:29

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Re: The art of the build

In a passer/BH combo with just them 2 shooting 3's though, the passer making lots of 3's is pretty common.  With that said, I'm still not sure the passive part does what it says.


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#28 2010-07-15 11:02:58

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Re: The art of the build

bbkaos wrote:

SASCO wrote:

Sorry i am reading this as i go. In regards to passing I think the Con u listed could be advantage in regards to the associated benefit of infinite range.

Btw greatly appreciate the write up

Oh missed this one.  I have never (recently) regarded passive benefits or skills as doing anything.  I'm not sure that the other part of infinite range has much effect.  From what I remember 8/10 made "long range shots" become 3's.  Infinite range bumps that to 9 and 10 out of 10.  So essentially, if it works at all, you are adding 1 point per 10 MADE long range shots.  I'm pretty sure my passers have rarely made 10 shots at all, let alone long range ones. 

I still love passers because they cover so many areas, and in a way they aren't linked with any secondaries so you are free to choose whatever you want.  Lately I have done shooting with them, merely to gain some more value in a real weakness that most of my lines have.  I also get the feeling that strong secondaries have an impact that is a bit greater than just the pure sim value they provide, although that is just a gut feeling speculation type thing.

If you can get your 3 Point shooter to 1100 TP, Infinite Range isn't a bad choice (assuming Passing was the Tier 1 skill that was chosen)


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#29 2010-07-15 11:03:45

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Re: The art of the build

SwaggerJ wrote:

bbkaos wrote:

Absolutely, I've seen teams without 3's do pretty well.  I would just personally never do it.  I know I come off strong, but I really am not saying my way is right or the only way.  It is just a matter of opinion really.  I mean one of the best teams of all time (CTTF) violated one of my rules (they had a FT guy instead of a leader, 3 offensive type players).  However, they were such good trainers and so far ahead of the curve slide wise that they dominated early Jordan.

What it comes down to is how ridiculously efficient 3's are.  Why wouldn't you want to take advantage of that?

Not quite true... While you may consider FT player as offensive type, William Wallace was used exclusively to slide into BH and Passing (again, blame marv... Originally he thought, as most of us have, that there was a Lead-BH chem, and Caine/Wallace were supposed to be Lead/BH. When we all figured out that there was no such chem, he decided to make Wallace into a FT guy and slide most into BH/Pass). I think the most interesting thing about the team was the fact that Wallace's line typically didn't have much Leadership. I guess they just dominated most of the other categories enough to be effective

He considers passing and BH "offensive".


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#30 2010-07-15 11:06:27

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Re: The art of the build

Pass/BH are very very very offensive.  I mean I got my idea to use the FT shooter the way I do from Wallace.  The skill part of infinite range definitely makes a lot more sense for a 3pt shooter, although hitting 1100 with a normal player is pretty rare.


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#31 2010-07-15 11:11:48

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Re: The art of the build

Unless your name is Little Hulk.


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#32 2010-07-15 11:44:27

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Re: The art of the build

Ohhhh, got it. I thought you were referring to scorers* when you said offensive. Carry on tongue

Edit: Yeah Rain only got to 1100 last season because he starts with an extra 5 Endurance and he ratted pretty hard the season before

*Edit2: I mean the general definition of scorers. Of course BH and Passers can be considered "scorers", as has been proven by you and many other teams (CRAP used them in their 'ship season), but I'm really only referring to the classic scorers, ie Dunking, Shooting, 3P and FT's (not slid away from FT like Wallace)

Last edited by SwaggerJ (2010-07-15 11:50:31)


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#33 2010-07-15 13:07:57

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Re: The art of the build

Yep I see what you mean.  I decided to go with the more broad classification.  3 groups:  Offensive, Defensive, and Rebound/Speed.  Offensive would be dunk, shoot, pass, BH, FT, and 3's  Defensive is Leadership, blocking and defense.  Rebound/speed is pretty self explanatory.  The reason for those groupings is actually mainly the slider relationships.  The only one that breaks ranks is sliding take less 3's throws some to leadership.  Other than that I believe all sliders stay within the groupings, which makes balance a function of how many of each that you have.


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#34 2010-07-17 05:13:34

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Re: The art of the build

Great post bbkaos big_smile

I think information like this (there are plenty of gems in there) can really help newer users enjoy the game as well as vets!

In the interest of furthering discussion on some topics I have a few thoughts.  I'm going to include some links with statements from Kaz that I have saved that are admittedly very old and could be outdated as they may have never been implemented or later tweaked, but at the very least, some food for thought!

Does anyone think there is a penalty involved for sliding attributes?  Essentially if you slide 100 points from rebounding to speed is there a % penalty (say 10%)?

http://www.courtrivals.com/forums/viewt … 11&p=1

kaz wrote:

So I'm trying to engineer a system to address these 2 needs and am looking to solicit feedback.  My plan right now is to make a coaching options system that you can adjust on a game to game basis that allows you to involuntarily "move" points out of some stat areas (at a penalty) and apply them to others.

http://www.courtrivals.com/forums/viewt … p?id=12950

kaz wrote:

If you count free throws there is actually FOUR shooting skills.  Coaching sliders let you take points out of an attribute and allocate them elsewhere (at a reduced rate of course).  For example the pass more/shoot more slider takes points out of passing and dumps them into other scoring categories.

Is speed somewhat of an extension of leadership?  Are we sure sliders work exactly as they are stated in general?  Obviously the gospel provides good information but it was put together by users and hasn't been 100% endorsed by Kaz as the absolute truth.

http://www.courtrivals.com/forums/viewt … p?id=20513

kaz wrote:

Getting "back" on defense affects non-rebounding skills (speed and leadership primarily)

It is important to grasp the idea of scoring possesions as bbkaos mentioned.

http://www.courtrivals.com/forums/viewt … 75&p=2

kaz wrote:

From the sim's perspective, everything is "scoring possessions" (the new "skill trees" hint at this)

What defense does is two fold:
1. It adds scoring possessions to your pool
2. It removes scoring possessions from our opponent's pool

Unfortunately, *other* attributes also grant you scoring possessions.  So, from the sim's perspective, it might award your team 4 scoring possessions on the basis that your starters have 500 speed total while your opponent's starters have only 100.

...and so on and so forth.

(some good additional insight into how defense works there as well)

To reiterate the idea that passing/ball handling are offensive skills

http://www.courtrivals.com/forums/viewt … 55&p=2

kaz wrote:

From the sim's standpoint, teams with superior passing and ball handling "earn" more scoring possessions.  Whether or not an assist is generated on that scoring possession is an independent calculation.

EDIT: A couple of the links don't work and I'm not sure why... I double checked them and I know they worked before.

Last edited by tmoney20 (2010-07-17 05:36:22)

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#35 2010-07-17 05:24:34

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Re: The art of the build

you raise a good point with the penalty thing, tmoney, and i always kind of thought that as well. just hard to pinpoint the amount.. (is it a percentage, or maybe just a total reduction)

the possession thing is probably the most important general and groundlaying concept you need to understand coming into this game...


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#36 2010-07-17 05:31:07

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Re: The art of the build

kr1shna wrote:

you raise a good point with the penalty thing, tmoney, and i always kind of thought that as well. just hard to pinpoint the amount.. (is it a percentage, or maybe just a total reduction)

the possession thing is probably the most important general and groundlaying concept you need to understand coming into this game...

Kaz did say that there was no reduction for sliding attributes in a PM or email but didn't respond when I sent him those specific links later...

I agree about understanding the possession part of the game, it can be difficult to understand at first but once you get the concept it clicks in many ways.

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#37 2010-07-17 05:50:39

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Re: The art of the build

tmoney20 wrote:

Kaz did say that there was no reduction for sliding attributes in a PM or email but didn't respond when I sent him those specific links later...

Kaz once told us that there is no penalty for using the sliders (turtle specifically asked him about that later in a pm and got the same response). Well, there is a cap on the sliders, you can't slide everything out of an attribute, also something Kaz said and was implemented after that rebounding incident.

Nice post bbkaos, covered a lot of stuff.


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#38 2010-07-17 05:53:58

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Re: The art of the build

A couple other things to chew on...

I think slider settings do have somewhat of an effect on how your unit performs beyond merely moving around sim points.  When facing an opponent with a similar amount of 3pt shooting or more but no dunker I had success reducing our 3pt shooter's shoot more slider and increasing our dunker's shoot more slider (as this is where we had a clear advantage). 

How does the sim look at matchups?  Are things related to % difference in sim points or pure totals?  Is there a combination?  Do certain skills effect other skills?

Last edited by tmoney20 (2010-07-17 05:56:46)

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#39 2010-07-17 05:57:36

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Re: The art of the build

tmoney20 wrote:

I think slider settings do have somewhat of an effect on how your unit performs beyond merely moving around sim points.  When facing an opponent with a similar amount of 3pt shooting or more but no dunker I had success reducing our 3pt shooter's shoot more slider and increasing our dunker's shoot more slider (as this is where we had a clear advantage).

I think that was just more coincidence than anything else. There are attributes which have an effect on other attributes on your own team, that is imho more important than your slider adjustments.

tmoney20 wrote:

How does the sim look at matchups?  Are things related to % difference in sim points or pure totals?  Is there a combination?  Do certain skills effect other skills?

Well, that is a question we (and with we I mean turtle and myself) never were able to fully discover. There were clear indications that this isn't about the pure totals. It is more a combination of quotients and probably standard deviations over all attributes (except endurance)  of the respective units. There might be also a factor applied to different attributes to ensure a certain degree of importance for each attribute.

Last edited by mystic (2010-07-17 06:02:29)


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Thanks bhill1767, Blowcaine, FastAsATurtle, fresh_tacos, Funk, Harbour, jbus, Lord Rott, marv88harrison, mchea, pat_mac05, redundant, rippev, team rohan, tesche, tmoney20, tsb5026, UCFinfan86, x-factor

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#40 2010-07-17 06:58:33

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Re: The art of the build

I think one day the mystic bible needs to be laid out tongue


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#41 2010-07-17 10:24:57

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Re: The art of the build

Yeah good stuff guys, I'd love to hear more.


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#42 2010-07-17 10:45:19

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Re: The art of the build

tmoney20 wrote:

Do certain skills effect other skills?

I think the "Gospel According To Doocar" has something about this.

The Court Rivals Gospel according to Doocar wrote:

8. Speed helps defense and undetermined offensive attributes.

Doesn't leadership effect other attributes also?


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#43 2010-07-17 10:57:06

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Re: The art of the build

Leadership buffs up everything else.  Exact understanding isn't actually close to necessary.  You just need to have an idea of what you are doing.  To me leadership and speed are intangibles that make everything else better. 

There are definitely some relationships between skills.  I don't think there is a sliding penalty though.  Some may have thought that because of their lack of knowledge regarding distribution.  I wonder all the time if Kazz actually knows how the high end of his own game works.


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#44 2010-07-17 12:15:12

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Re: The art of the build

bbkaos wrote:

I wonder all the time if Kazz actually knows how the high end of his own game works.

QFT!


The sliding penalty was theorized because, for example, Ball Handlers sliding to 3pt shooting are no where near as effective for a squad as pure 3pt shooters.  However, after Kaz debunked the sliding penalty theory (and assuming he knows how this all works) the theory moved on to be that Base Values played a role as well as Sim Values in determining not only stat distribution on a line, but also between two teams.


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#45 2010-07-17 12:58:29

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Re: The art of the build

Tesche wrote:

bbkaos wrote:

I wonder all the time if Kazz actually knows how the high end of his own game works.

QFT!


The sliding penalty was theorized because, for example, Ball Handlers sliding to 3pt shooting are no where near as effective for a squad as pure 3pt shooters.  However, after Kaz debunked the sliding penalty theory (and assuming he knows how this all works) the theory moved on to be that Base Values played a role as well as Sim Values in determining not only stat distribution on a line, but also between two teams.

I think the Gospel according to Doocar has something about this too.

The Court Rivals Gospel according to Doocar wrote:

Then, Leadership and Defense are each added up for their individual squads and those ratings come into play at some point too, but they are not compared to the other team.

Could The Court Rivals Gospel according to Doocar be wrong?


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#46 2010-07-17 13:23:47

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Re: The art of the build

Really, BH slid to 3's aren't as effective for the team compared to 3pt shooters?  I don't necessarily think that is true at all. 

I don't listen to any quotes that fail to make distinctions between sim values and attribute values.  Seems pretty obvious that everything is compared to the other lineup.


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#47 2010-07-17 16:19:48

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Re: The art of the build

GREAT write up bb....guess I'll just slide to nowhere ....lol.


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#48 2010-07-19 15:21:07

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Re: The art of the build

Continuing on.....

http://www.courtrivals.com/forums/viewt … 2#p1470892 - This is what it looks like as a finished product.  The starters are FT/3's/rebound/block/lead, and the bench is pass/BH/rebound/block/lead.  The screenshot is from the season 17 playoffs. 

http://www.courtrivals.com/showBoxscore.php?gid=656405 - This is a great example of getting owned in rebounds (notice the O-boards discrepancy) and how it didn't matter at all.


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#49 2010-07-20 23:28:30

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Re: The art of the build

I feel the need to elaborate a bit more as I didn't explain a part of my thought process well.  Given that you want 1 rebound or speed, and 2 of lead/block/D, that leaves 2 offensive players.  Given that you want 3's, that means a BH or 3's.  That leaves one offensive spot.

Rebound or speed
Lead
Block or D
3's or BH
?

With that group the choice comes down to pass, shoot, dunk, FT, or BH.  BH is eliminated because it won't be able to chem while having 3's or BH in the other line.  Shoot and dunk are the same type of player, so the choice really is pass, shoot, or FT.  That choice greatly depends on what areas you want to have as weaknesses, and how easy those weaknesses are to cover with secondaries.

If you choose shooting, you can use that player to cover dunking and a bit of FTs.  The weakness will be in passing and BH.  BH can be covered a bit from sliding the 3pt shooter down, and from a secondary with the leader.  Pass can be covered from secondaries with the shooter and 3pt shooter.  This wouldn't be my choice, but it is workable, especially if you consider shooting or dunking to be more important than BH or passing (I don't, many do).  This tends to work a bit better if the 3pt shooter is instead a BH.  The difference is that a BH can slide more easily to BH and 3's without dropping some off in leadership as 3pt shooters do.

If you choose passing you will not have as many weaknesses at all, as the passer can provide varying amounts of value in FTs, shooting and dunking.  Shoot/dunk will still be a bit low, but at least you can cover them without secondaries.  Of course if you have secondaries, those are the areas to focus on.  Again, if you have a 3pt shooter some players need BH as secondary, a leader guard works great for this and a passer can take a secondary in BH too.  If it is a BH instead of a 3pt shooter you really have everything covered pretty nicely.  This was my choice for quite a long time (pass/3's), and I still use BH/pass today. 

If you choose FTs you will have epic amounts in pass and BH provided you slide the FTs away heavily.  The obvious weaknesses are shoot/dunk.  These can be covered with secondaries, as the 3pt shooter naturally takes shooting as a secondary.  I tend to use lead forwards with a secondary in dunking for this type of line.  If you value pass/BH over shoot/dunk this is the ultimate way to go, and my current choice for that reason.  FT/BH is probably just as good, although I haven't used it much.  It is a bit tougher to work the secondaries that way, as a BH player can't take a secondary in shooting as well as a 3pt shooter can.  The advantage is more easy sets of level 7s though. 

Briefly, pairing BH with 3's screws your other line.  Pairing dunking instead of shooting in that mix is virtually the same thing with a slightly different way of getting the same type of result.  I have no issues with choosing dunk over shoot, I just don't need to type the same thing twice. 

So there you go, that is how I approach building a team.  The goal is 1k in every area, although that is shooting a bit low.  It is just my opinion, use it as food for thought and don't blindly follow it.


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#50 2010-07-20 23:44:00

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Re: The art of the build

Is it hard to use a player that's good with speed? Would it be better to have a rebounder?


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