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#51 2009-03-09 08:06:49

team rohan
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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

mpiemont wrote:

Did manilla get a full set of breakers / stoppers?

If not and TSS did.. then they are worth about 20-30k (or more) sim value which is way overpowered imo.

MG had 4 players with breakers/stoppers. I think TSS would have had 8 max, if they had 2 guys go gym rat.

Last edited by team rohan (2009-03-09 08:20:49)


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#52 2009-03-09 08:15:42

I Am Basketball
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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

Wow. How did you lose?


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#53 2009-03-09 08:20:37

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

I Am Basketball wrote:

Wow. How did you lose?

My mistake, we had 4 players with stopper/breaker not 6.


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#54 2009-03-09 08:26:56

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

Well, even 2 more stoppers/gamebreakers can make a difference. That plus sliders and team chems could be the difference.


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#55 2009-03-09 08:29:41

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

team rohan wrote:

I Am Basketball wrote:

Wow. How did you lose?

My mistake, we had 4 players with stopper/breaker not 6.

Even better. If TSS had 8 guys that's a big difference. At minimum that's an eight-point swing in TSS's favor.


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#56 2009-03-09 08:54:24

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

balance imo

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#57 2009-03-09 09:03:31

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

Branduil wrote:

Just looking at the slider settings, I can see some things I would change. I also think relying on the ball-handling-diverted-into-3-pointers doesn't work as well as you'd think, we tried it before too.

i think its works perfectly fine not but now for personal stats. But you would think we would shoot more 3's, so you maybe right.


Again guys this isn't a thread showing how we lost, those were totals were changed throughout the season. I would white out the attribute totals specifically to avoid the speculation but i want people to see how theres a stat distribution glitch.

If it is true that those 4 game breaker/stopper made the difference then i think we can all agree on the importance of them. We experimented but failed i guess, it will be interesting if teams will try to copy us or stick to the O/D trees. If the cap isn't raised then i'm guessing pretty much all the teams will stick to their current main attribute.


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#58 2009-03-09 09:05:34

malice
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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

redundant wrote:

malice wrote:

I think Transition Game is the most highly overrated team chem in the game... but that's a different conversation entirely!

Agreed.  I swear to god it's broken.

I don't think it's broken, I just think it's a bandaid chem you use when you aren't sure what you're trying to do with team chems.

mpiemont wrote:

Did manilla get a full set of breakers / stoppers?

If not and TSS did.. then they are worth about 20-30k (or more) sim value which is way overpowered imo.

Time and time again, we've seen that merely having the points doesn't mean much - it's what you do with 'em.  Agreed tho': that's one helluva lotta points to overcome!

bheilman wrote:

balance imo

Yup.


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#59 2009-03-09 09:20:57

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

I've preached balance from Day 1 (and I actually spoke to the topic of balance and chemistries, and over-specializing on the radio show last night).

Bottom line- Even as Manilla was mailing me to add new chemistry icons, I knew this outcome was a good possibility.  The sim awards balance, and 5 people with one attribute nearly maxed out means six other attributes are woefully underrepresented.

Without giving too much away, there's a lot of pieces to winning a game beyond attribute levels.  You have stopper/gamebreaker (obviously), team chemistries, lineup composition, rebounding+ the put back skill, infinite range (and its obvious affect on potentially having your team score more), and the affects of certain attributes (see: leadership, the buff to ball handling and passing alike, etc.)

So while I applaud your efforts for making a training plan, I think it's extremely unfair to label the sim as "broken" just because your plan didn't work.  Last season, the Franchise Underdogs had a plan and it *did* work.  I know many teams that have had plans that tragically didn't work.

Anyway, at the end of the day, as great of a tool marv88harrison's script is, it also makes me realize one of my biggest fears- the day when people compare one number versus another and wrongly assume if X > Y then my team should win.  The sim does not operate like this (if it did, I could shave a ton of lines of code off the sim!)

Anyhow, I hate to see you go, but I think the fact that we've had a Pro A team win the tourney every year is a testament that the sim is doing something right.  It's the Sweet 16, and we have 7 out of the 8 Number 1 and 2 seeds left.  The rating system is doing something right, and I think the lesson here is that if your plan isn't consistently working BEFORE the playoffs, then don't expect to level a chemistry up once more and suddenly go on a tear.

Anyway, to those who feel slighted, I apologize.  As I said before, only 1 team out of 64 very deserving (and active!) teams will win.  Should you choose to leave the site after this season, I wish you the best.  Should you choose to stay, I thank you for your continued support.

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#60 2009-03-09 09:26:53

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

So does this thread mean we can stop calling anyone who doesn't only train one attribute a point whore? Maybe there is something to strategies other than maxing out your chemistry?

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#61 2009-03-09 09:31:03

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

The only thing I see as unbalanced (from the numbers point of view) is the starting squad had low shooting/dunking and blocking instead of defense. Only attribute that is overtrained is 3pt shooting.

The bench had over 3000 in every attribute except blocking and over 5000 in 6 attributes which i think is an incredible achievement.


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#62 2009-03-09 09:33:27

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

Unless you mean from a person to person perspective... then I understand.

But how come gym rat teams don't do better then?

Last edited by mpiemont (2009-03-09 09:36:29)


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#63 2009-03-09 09:35:42

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

High numbers obviously mean a lot, just look at FU. You just can't assume it means everything. The low shooting/dunking was the first red flag for me though.


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#64 2009-03-09 09:36:36

malice
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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

bheilman wrote:

So does this thread mean we can stop calling anyone who doesn't only train one attribute a point whore? Maybe there is something to strategies other than maxing out your chemistry?

As someone who used to use that term, I've come to realise there's no such thing.
And on your second point - I agree wholeheartedly.


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#65 2009-03-09 09:37:46

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

You also have to keep in mind that they lost by 3.  Which is literally the difference of one or two gamebreaker/stopper skills.  I mean, let's keep in mind that the final score wasn't 140-80.

Is the loss a tough one?  I'm not saying it isn't, but I also don't think that screaming "the sim is broken!" from the rooftops is a fair assessment, either.

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#66 2009-03-09 09:47:29

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

seriously guys..  stuff happens... I like the fact that anyone can be beat on anygiven night.. I am sure that you guys had high hopes once you had lvl 7 chems and all, but seriously its a game, not a science.


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#67 2009-03-09 09:48:14

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

I don't think anyone is screaming "the sim is broken" here it's just kinda fuzzy to understand.

Manilla is obviously a team with a lot of knowledge in the sim and after playing for 6-7 seasons and they got it wrong. Hey, it happens!

I see threads like this as a great opportunity to see from the player's perspective how this game operates and how frustration sits in after training to 120k sim value. I agree their balance does seem a bit off but it's not horribly off - plus someone said the monkey script had an error.

Thank you Manilla for showing us your plan.

Last edited by mpiemont (2009-03-09 09:49:37)


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#68 2009-03-09 09:52:15

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

Well, we know the sim normalizes things to some degree... so I imagine after a certain point, having a huge advantage in points in one attribute just doesn't mean as much.

Frankly it's really hard to truly analyze the loss without having the same info from TSS. We don't know what skills, chems, or team chems they have.


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#69 2009-03-09 10:00:29

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

No offense to Manila, which is an awesome team full of quality players, but I am so glad that they lost.  If this game had devolved into training to max chem levels to win, it would have become extremely boring and would have probably led to masses of people leaving the game with hope of ever being able to compete on the same level as the vets, even with gym rat.

This loss actually gives me a little bit more hope for the sim.  It needs tweaked for sure, but obviously it is not simply a "biggest" number wins sim, which it shouldn't be, as that provides for minimal strategy.


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#70 2009-03-09 10:04:16

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

Kaz, I wrote you an e-mail. Hope, that this is possible.

Also, I'm not sold that the sim is broken or there is too much randomness. That is too easy. But maybe there is a flaw in the sim which lead to strange results.


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#71 2009-03-09 10:34:50

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

malice wrote:

bheilman wrote:

So does this thread mean we can stop calling anyone who doesn't only train one attribute a point whore? Maybe there is something to strategies other than maxing out your chemistry?

As someone who used to use that term, I've come to realise there's no such thing.
And on your second point - I agree wholeheartedly.

So what you are saying is "weykoolin it" is actually a compliment?

Good to know.


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#72 2009-03-09 11:33:33

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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

Doctor #46 wrote:

That is simply a ridiculous amount of points....but still you guys should have moved more points into leadership...i know of multiple leadership players who eclipse that amount of leadership on their own...and guess what...it was in the 4th where you guys lost it...so yeah

I still find that concept absolutely ridiculous.  It's a fundamental flaw to the game IMO.  Leadership should NOT be in the end all, be all to whether you win or keep a lead.


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#73 2009-03-09 11:58:10

Tesche
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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

abellwillring wrote:

Doctor #46 wrote:

That is simply a ridiculous amount of points....but still you guys should have moved more points into leadership...i know of multiple leadership players who eclipse that amount of leadership on their own...and guess what...it was in the 4th where you guys lost it...so yeah

I still find that concept absolutely ridiculous.  It's a fundamental flaw to the game IMO.  Leadership should NOT be in the end all, be all to whether you win or keep a lead.

I feel that it has shown to not be the be-all, end-all, but a deciding factor when two teams are very closely matched.


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#74 2009-03-09 12:10:42

dchan07
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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

I'm confused. How did you have a free throw chem and still have nearly 6000 ball handling?


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#75 2009-03-09 12:11:53

bheilman
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Re: The Manilla tell all story :)

dchan07 wrote:

I'm confused. How did you have a free throw chem and still have nearly 6000 ball handling?

Pass/Shoot
Shoot More - Increases Free Throws and Shooting equally.
Decreases Passing.

Pass More - Increases Ball Handling and Passing equally.
Decreases Free Throws.

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