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#76 2010-03-12 18:24:28

bbkaos
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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

Agree with marv, and I've finally reached that point.


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#77 2010-03-12 18:25:55

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

bbkaos wrote:

Agree with marv, and I've finally reached that point.

It was only a matter of time, young padawan.


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#78 2010-03-12 18:29:58

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

What broke me was the apparent progress last season with the 1st/2nd team, plus the site redesign (which I figured would spill over into other areas).


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#79 2010-03-12 20:19:13

malice
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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

bbkaos wrote:

Not sure how this attitude is any better. What should our reaction be to a clearly broken system?

Really?  So getting your idea across by bitching/moaning is going to have a positive outcome?

SwaggerJ wrote:

Edit: There's a difference between whining that your player should have been an award winner and pointing out that a certain player or 2 looks out of place on the list.

And there's a massive difference in "pointing out that a certain player or 2 looks out of place on the list" and "whining whilst pointing out that a certain player or 2 looks out of place on the list". 

marv88harrison wrote:

When I was first coming up I used to bundle my opinions in cute little packages so no one would be offended. I soon realized though that that is terribly unproductive around these parts. No sense taking the time to sugar coat something that in all likelihood isn't going to be read.

This is laughable.  You figure that bitching/moaning is going to be more productive?

No-one's asking you to sugar-coat things guys... nor pull punches.  But coming across as whiny kids (I KNOW you're not!) doesn't help matters either.  State what you need to, without the bellyaching.


If it's simply boiled down to "this-place-sucks", you have a clear and simple option to relieve your pain.


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#80 2010-03-12 20:38:22

SwaggerJ
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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

malice wrote:

bbkaos wrote:

Not sure how this attitude is any better. What should our reaction be to a clearly broken system?

Really?  So getting your idea across by bitching/moaning is going to have a positive outcome?

SwaggerJ wrote:

Edit: There's a difference between whining that your player should have been an award winner and pointing out that a certain player or 2 looks out of place on the list.

And there's a massive difference in "pointing out that a certain player or 2 looks out of place on the list" and "whining whilst pointing out that a certain player or 2 looks out of place on the list". 

marv88harrison wrote:

When I was first coming up I used to bundle my opinions in cute little packages so no one would be offended. I soon realized though that that is terribly unproductive around these parts. No sense taking the time to sugar coat something that in all likelihood isn't going to be read.

This is laughable.  You figure that bitching/moaning is going to be more productive?

No-one's asking you to sugar-coat things guys... nor pull punches.  But coming across as whiny kids (I KNOW you're not!) doesn't help matters either.  State what you need to, without the bellyaching.


If it's simply boiled down to "this-place-sucks", you have a clear and simple option to relieve your pain.

You seem to be taking things way out of context malice. There is very minimal bitching in this thread and what little there is, is certainly warranted. The fact is, there are clearly players on that list that are questionable. If the team is named "All Defensive Team", then that would lead you to assume that the best defensive players (not on 1st or 2nd team) from the best teams would be on this list. That doesn't appear to be true. If Kaz or the mods (not sure how involved they are in the process) want to come and explain how these questionable award winners made it, that's fine. Until then, expect to see "bitching" and "complaining"... aka questions and comments.


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#81 2010-03-12 20:45:32

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

@malice: From the Suggestions Thread

There is the constructive feed-back thread.  If you want to post something that will hopefully be viewed by the mods and possibly acted upon in a respectful manner, that is your thread.

Otherwise, feel free to continue to flame here imo.  This is at least the fourth season in a row that something like this has happened.  I absolutely understand people going around the bend to "bitching and moaning" at this point.


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#82 2010-03-12 20:51:23

malice
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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

Hannibal wrote:

@malice: From the Suggestions Thread

There is the constructive feed-back thread.  If you want to post something that will hopefully be viewed by the mods and possibly acted upon in a respectful manner, that is your thread.

Otherwise, feel free to continue to flame here imo.  This is at least the fourth season in a row that something like this has happened.  I absolutely understand people going around the bend to "bitching and moaning" at this point.

Excuse me?  I think you have this bass-ackwards.


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#83 2010-03-12 20:52:00

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

Awesome malice, thats fine. I'll keep posting however I want though, thanks.


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#84 2010-03-12 20:58:44

malice
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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

SwaggerJ wrote:

You seem to be taking things way out of context malice. There is very minimal bitching in this thread and what little there is, is certainly warranted. The fact is, there are clearly players on that list that are questionable. If the team is named "All Defensive Team", then that would lead you to assume that the best defensive players (not on 1st or 2nd team) from the best teams would be on this list. That doesn't appear to be true. If Kaz or the mods (not sure how involved they are in the process) want to come and explain how these questionable award winners made it, that's fine. Until then, expect to see "bitching" and "complaining"... aka questions and comments.

Respectfully SwaggerJ, no I'm not (taking things out of context).  "The fact is, there are clearly players on that list that are questionable" - is not in dispute, you - and others - are 100% correct on this.
I'm just suggesting that there's a way to phrase these questions that is far more conducive to getting the point across, without having to dilute the message at all.  And you are wrong on "bitching/complaining" = questions/comments.  It's incredibly unfair to imply that's what I was stating.

marv88harrison wrote:

Awesome malice, thats fine. I'll keep posting however I want though, thanks.

That's ok marv, I'm beginning to expect it.


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#85 2010-03-12 21:07:46

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

I'm just saying that I bet there would be a hell of a lot less complaining if all of the award winners were broadcasted at once.  WHERZ MY PLAYAH, HE HAD---oh he made 2nd team. KTHXBAI

I think, if anything, a constructive effort should be made to figure out who exactly should be rewarded.  I'm not talking players, I'm talking player types now.  From what I gather, there seems to be pure passers and pure scorers and pure rebounders.  There also seems to be a mix, but it's questionable as to how they're aligned.

With respect to the mods, I think they did a hell of a job rewarding what...120 players?


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#86 2010-03-12 21:17:53

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

malice wrote:

SwaggerJ wrote:

You seem to be taking things way out of context malice. There is very minimal bitching in this thread and what little there is, is certainly warranted. The fact is, there are clearly players on that list that are questionable. If the team is named "All Defensive Team", then that would lead you to assume that the best defensive players (not on 1st or 2nd team) from the best teams would be on this list. That doesn't appear to be true. If Kaz or the mods (not sure how involved they are in the process) want to come and explain how these questionable award winners made it, that's fine. Until then, expect to see "bitching" and "complaining"... aka questions and comments.

Respectfully SwaggerJ, no I'm not (taking things out of context).  "The fact is, there are clearly players on that list that are questionable" - is not in dispute, you - and others - are 100% correct on this.
I'm just suggesting that there's a way to phrase these questions that is far more conducive to getting the point across, without having to dilute the message at all.  And you are wrong on "bitching/complaining" = questions/comments.  It's incredibly unfair to imply that's what I was stating.

marv88harrison wrote:

Awesome malice, thats fine. I'll keep posting however I want though, thanks.

That's ok marv, I'm beginning to expect it.

Fair enough, I just don't think it's as bad as you do. Difference of opinion is all that is... The important issue is the few questionable award winners. Just curious how they won...


csc5782 wrote:

I'm just saying that I bet there would be a hell of a lot less complaining if all of the award winners were broadcasted at once.  WHERZ MY PLAYAH, HE HAD---oh he made 2nd team. KTHXBAI

I think, if anything, a constructive effort should be made to figure out who exactly should be rewarded.  I'm not talking players, I'm talking player types now.  From what I gather, there seems to be pure passers and pure scorers and pure rebounders.  There also seems to be a mix, but it's questionable as to how they're aligned.

With respect to the mods, I think they did a hell of a job rewarding what...120 players?

I don't think the issue is actually the fact that people feel their players got shafted (maybe some do), I just think some users are questioning the integrity of the automated results. Personally, I have no stake in who wins All D team as I don't have any players that would qualify, I would just like to think that the right users are getting rewarded.


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#87 2010-03-12 21:25:39

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

That's my point, I see that concern, but (aside from not really being a big deal to me) maybe it's worth figuring out what player types the Kaz and the mods should be looking at.

I mean, you clearly have:

Passer
Scorer
Rebounder
Stealer
Blocker

How many of each?  Which teams?  Is it All-D, 2nd Team, 1st Team?  How many on each team?  Obviously no Passer on All-D...  but...we have 30 spots, let's take a look at this.

Also, are there hybrid players?  Passer-Scorer?  Rebounder-Scorer?  A stealer-blocker?  Or the famous "leadership" guy who doesn't have flashy stats or whatever.

Don't harp on THIS PLAYER...harp on player types.  THIS PLAYER may have played different ranked opponents.  And I don't want to hear "oh he played more games at Pro A than Pro B than the other, who stayed in Pro C all season"  yea, but how did said Pro A player perform against Pro A teams?  Users need to go into drastically more detail.  And unfortunately, I think you have to do the research per day every day of a season to find the facts.  I think Kaz set up the player database to keep track of the team's division so that it has some weight in the awards, no?  If he does, we should trust that.

It's again, the player types we should be scrutinizing.  Player Names are just that...  Player Names, with an ID number, attached to a User ID

Last edited by csc5782 (2010-03-12 21:27:02)


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#88 2010-03-12 21:47:35

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

Well the player type isn't the problem. The player I have been referring to clearly falls in the dual threat big man category. The problem is that apparently the weight on SoS is very light and the formulas are so pedestrian that they don't make the necessary checks to get the most qualified individuals.


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#89 2010-03-12 21:57:16

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

Then it's the weight on SoS in the dual threat big man player type.

SoS may need to be tweaked across the board then.


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#90 2010-03-12 22:07:31

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

SoS and a couple checks to keep things logical. For instance, if a player averages more points per game than 1.25 * (their rebounds per game) then they are not eligible for any defensive spots.

Also, the static group of categories doesn't really fit what CR needs. Some flex spots would be great.

Last edited by marv88harrison (2010-03-12 22:08:35)


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#91 2010-03-12 22:13:32

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

Not sure how a flex spot could work.  Unless the 3rd dual threat and a 3rd passer is pitted against each other via the MVP formula, however it works, and whoever wins that gets flex spot #2?


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#92 2010-03-12 22:28:49

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

You guys are nuckin' futs.

Regardless, not sure why this is so complex.

Defense is defense, and with the way rebounds are over-powered, it should not be too hard to come up with something.

I mean, for all defensive, why can't Blocks + Steals = 85 percent and Rebounds = 15 percent.

Or you could even do Rebounds - Turnovers = 15 percent.

That seems fair to me. 

And then you can do something like x2 for Pro A, x1.75 for Pro B, x1.5 for Pro C, x1.25 for Pro D if you are that concerned about quality stats not working well enough.

This seems practical and easy enough to me (not saying this should be the formula by any means, but it seems more logical than what is currently going on.

Last edited by DemonDeacs (2010-03-12 22:29:11)

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#93 2010-03-12 22:46:31

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

I'm sure that's what Kaz and the mods have already, at bare minimum.  There's got to be checks to see how that works.  I mean, you say those numbers why?  Did you do research on it?  The automated system they have in place now is what...80-90% there?  So it must work well to a great degree.  So let's perfect this mother.

So Defense is Defense.  How do rebounds come in here?  What about a scorer that has 30 ppg, 4 rpg; how much better is he than a 22 ppg, 18 rpg.?  How do you do that?


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#94 2010-03-12 22:47:47

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

csc5782 wrote:

I'm sure that's what Kaz and the mods have already, at bare minimum.  There's got to be checks to see how that works.  I mean, you say those numbers why?  Did you do research on it?  The automated system they have in place now is what...80-90% there?  So it must work well to a great degree.  So let's perfect this mother.

So Defense is Defense.  How do rebounds come in here?  What about a scorer that has 30 ppg, 4 rpg; how much better is he than a 22 ppg, 18 rpg.?  How do you do that?

I would recommend a way to perfect it if I knew what it already was.

I was just throwing out numbers as an example, not a method.

Defensive Rebounds count as defense in my eyes, but the player stats page does not let you differentiate that (though the box scores do).

Not that I've ever won an award or looked into the award system, so I don't really care at this point.  Just that there has been so much complaining about this for seasons and seasons, and that I'm tired of seeing it, makes me feel that a change is necessary now.

Last edited by DemonDeacs (2010-03-12 22:52:59)

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#95 2010-03-13 00:38:07

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

Then maybe Rebounders should be taken out of 1st and 2nd team, likewise with the top stealer and blocker, especially since there's a Defensive Player of the Year Award now, effectively a 2nd MVP award.  Leave 1st and 2nd Team to Offense.  But I'd take the Dual Threats out of the All-D team; just my thoughts.  I think it just needs to be clear cut and dry.


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#96 2010-03-13 00:50:43

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

The disappointing thing is there seemed to be a lot of progress on this last season as the mods delayed releasing the first and second teams to double check players were deserving.  It seems like a bit of a step backwards that this apparently wasn't done this season, instead we got a "we will look into this in future seasons".  I'm confused, I thought the problem was already identified and being worked on but it doesn't seem so.

I don't worry too much about awards but they are obviously a big deal for many users and to make matters worse winning an award gives a player a fairly large advantage in training for future seasons.

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#97 2010-03-13 01:28:12

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Re: Season 15 All Defensive Team

chetter wrote:

Wow that was an unexpected win for Merriman but thanx and congrats to everyone else

It was deserved for a long time. I envisioned you having Woodley there too. That would be sick eh?


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